The David Moyes debate goes on following the arrival of first managerial candidate through the doors of Sullivan Towers – Paulo Fontesca and in this piece Iain Dale – founder of www.West Ham Till I Die.com explains his past mixed emotions and current position on the Scot’s claims to carry on at the London Stadium.
As I write this on Monday evening, it looks pretty certain that David Moyes will be leaving West Ham. In a strict contractual sense, he has already left given that his contract apparently finished at midnight on Sunday.
So, in some ways it is entirely right and proper that the West Ham board should cast their net far and wide in order to start next season with the best manager possible. Moyes has tried to put a little pressure on David Sullivan with some of his comments at the weekend, but if he is expecting it to work, it looks as if he’s mightily mistaken.
Moyes did what was asked of him. He ensured West Ham avoided relegation. Seven out of nine points in the last three matches of the season saw to that. And yet…
I’ll put my cards on the table. I didn’t want Moyes to replace Bilic. I remember emailing David Sullivan almost pleading not to appoint him. But we’re a fickle lot, we supporters, and he actually won me around. He seemed to inject a new, and some would say, much needed discipline into the team. Their fitness levels seemed to improve, and after a rather dodgy start, we started to win a few games.
I’m sure we all remember the 1-0 victory against Chelsea. There were some half decent performances too, even if the results weren’t always what they might have been. However, Moyes has always been known for his ‘let’s get the defence right first’ approach to football. But he never really did that. We shipped goals like there was no tomorrow. The results don’t lie. We let in more goals over the season than any other club in the league. Luckily we scored twelve more than Burnley, who finished 7th. Of the 31 matches Moyes managed, six were lost by three goals or more.
Yes, he could cite defensive injuries, but when you sell one of your experienced defenders in the transfer window when several of your other defenders are injury prone, be careful what you wish for. Just imagine where we’d be if young Declan Rice hadn’t risen to the challenge.
It was in mid-March that I began to wonder whether my new found faith in David Moyes had been misplaced. It was the Burnley, Stoke and Arsenal matches which really did it for me. The team selections seemed to defy logic. How he could think the same formations and lineups for Stoke at home and Arsenal away beggared belief.
It was around that time that it emerged that at least six West Ham players were hacked off with the manager. OK, there will always be players who are unhappy for various reasons, but when you have such diverse characters as Angelo Ogbonna, Declan Rice, Manuel Lanzini, Javier Hernandez, Andy Carroll and a couple of others all saying the same thing (apparently), you know there is a problem. I don’t believe in player power overruling a manager, but it was hardly the best environment to launch a run in of very difficult games, which, had we lost all of them, could have ended up with relegation. In the end we missed relegation by 9 points, but it could have been very different.
The fact that we got two wins and a draw against three decent teams in our last three games shouldn’t mask the inherent problems at West Ham. We got those points against three teams with nothing to play for. Unlike us. I’ll admit to being surprised at the quality of the team performances in each of those games, but it’s easy to play well when the other team isn’t operating at 100% firepower. We have some outstanding individual players who often play as if they have never met their teammates. That happened under Bilic and it has happened far too often under Moyes. And too often he hasn’t been able to change tactics to get the best out many of the players, albeit with one exception.
That exception has been Marko Arnautovic. I’d love to know what triggered his transformation from a journeyman who couldn’t be arsed under Bilic to one of the Premier League’s best players under Moyes. He scored for fun and became a world beater. He clearly seemed to think he had a point to prove to all of us, and he proved it with some panache. He’s a player I’ve grown to love watching. Is that down to David Moyes? I don’t know.
When Slaven Bilic left we had 9 points from 11 games. Moyes has got 31 points from 27 games. In a full season that would have been a total of 46 points. Hardly earth shattering but it would have enabled us to finish three places higher, in tenth place. If Bilic’s record had continued we’d have had 32 points and been relegated.
My honest feeling is that David Moyes isn’t a West Ham kind of manager and frankly never will be. I think it was the 3-0 capitulation at Wigan in the FA Cup that started the rot in terms of him losing the fans. In truth, though, we never took to him.
I know there are many people who believe he should be given a two year contract. My fear is that we will have another Allardyce on our hands. He’ll do OK but won’t play the kind of football we want to watch. I’ll never forget the despair I felt at various points during Allardyce’s reign. It’s the only time I’ve actually dreaded going to a match because I knew I’d be bored.
Having said that, when did we last have a West Ham kind of manager? Zola? Pardew?
Looking at the candidates to replace Moyes, there are one or two who I doubt would offer a different kind of football to Moyes. Benitez’s teams, for example, have never been at the cutting edge of entertaining football.
Talk of attracting the likes of Emery, Pellegrini, Nagelsmann or Ancelotti is all well and good but are we really going to attract any of them? Really? I’d love to believe it, but I have my doubts. But we should certainly be aiming high if the club’s ambition really is to proceed to the next level. The fact that Paulo Fonseca, the Shakhtar Donetsk manager was seen being driven into David Sullivan’s Essex mansion yesterday evening is certainly an encouraging sign.
There are, however, plenty of good managers already operating in England or Scotland who would fit us well, if we can’t get one of the top managers.
Brendan Rodgers would surely welcome a return to the Premier League. Would Eddie Howe or Sean Dyche not be persuadable and relish a new challenge? Could David Wagner be enticed away from Huddersfield? Marco Silva, the former Watford manager, is said to interest the board. He did a cracking job at Watford until his head was turned by Everton. He was never quite the same again, and Watford eventually lost patience with him.
My conclusion is that David Moyes should be thanked for his work at West Ham but we should then bid him farewell. There is, however, a but. If there really is no one on the managerial market who fits the job better than Moyes, then we may have to ask him to stay on.
He may regard that as insulting, and tell us to do one unless he is offered the job within the next week. So be it. But the board owes it so us to get this appointment right. We can’t contemplate another Avram Grant situation. Time is rather of the essence, given that the transfer window opens on Thursday.
Whoever becomes our next manager is going to need to start with a fairly blank sheet of paper. There will be quite a few departures from the club over the summer and I suspect we will be buying quite a few players. So while there is no imperative to appoint a manager this week, we should certainly be making an offer well before the World Cup finals start.
Nostrovia.
#keyboardwarrior
I think that Moyes should be given a chance at the job. He couldn’t really introduce much discipline as a temporary manager and I think he may rule with more of an iron fist if he knew that he was there for at least two years. We need a tough manager to sort out the club and get rid of our ever present attitude to turning up just now and then. There is something built into our fabric that makes us always fail – the West Ham way.
Interesting piece Ian, but it seems to me you are questioning whether Moyes had any impact on the things that went right -Arnie etc- but blaming him for the things that went wrong eg defence.
The main charge against seems to be the style of football. We scored more goals than any teams outside the top 9,& more than Burnley.
The other is the ‘West Ham Way’ argument. Moyes will apparently not give us that. The problem is that most of the alternatives that people mention will either not come or are not clearly better. You mention Wagner- was it 26/28 goals for Huddersfield. Rodgers-what give up CL for a relegation scrap etc etc.
To be fair I am probably just doing what I accuse you of but reversing it – I would credit Moyes for the successes & excuse him for the big failure (defence). But I think the bottom line are the stats you give, although I make it 33 points from his games. I agree that would have meant 46/47 over the season. Remember this is with a team he inherited & had no pre season with. But again it is perception. So many Hammer fans think that is still not good enough. If that had been his first full season it would have been good enough for me.
And more goals than Everton!! I know the defence was a disaster but I believe most people would back him to sort that given time & some cash.
I fear Fonseca may be another Bilic, but it looks that is the way it is going. Oh well another joyride! After two seasons flirting with relegation the odds on going down in the third one will be high. That’s why I would go for solid rebuilding, but maybe this geezer will give us another Bilic first season. Maybe.
Spot on every time 64.
Yep. He has instilled some discipline and knows what he wants. With the right purse he can build a stronger defence and midfield. Better to build on what we have than gamble again on some foreign guy with no Prem experience. Of course if we could get Pochettino….. 🙂
I agree with a lot of the arguement Iain but I watched Everton quite a bit under Moyes and sometimes they were dogged in defence particularly against the big teams and it appeared to have limited success but quite often they would win 2 or 3 nil certainly not something you would attribute to a Dyche or a Wagner, Moyes is the best of the steady performers. Personally I think we need to reset and he is the best choice to do that, you are closer to the club than I would ever be but it seems like most of the players respect him, maybe Hernandez/Carroll etc are not happy because they are not playing, maybe they are not playing because they are not playing the way Moyes wants them too, if players aren’t in the team their are bound to be grumbles from within the club or the leaks Moyes referred too, would be nice if he plugged a few of those. I think the Daves will go a different route and the way they have treated him Moyes should also but I would credit him a lot with our staying in the league onwards and upwards hopefully for both parties COYI !!!
again spot on.
And Mr. Dale stating mere gossip as fact. tut tut
I have never heard Rice or Lanzini or anyone other than Carroll and Hernandes complaining about the manager. I can’t even imagine Rice saying anything against anyone.
When players have been living in a holiday camp for too long, then they should feel the pinch of reality. Bring on more of the reality. Keep the manager and let him finish the job.
Under Bilic we would have been relegated with 32 pts , Claretandhugh words , not mine .
Fact is we signed Moyes and acrewed 42 pts & 13th place . We earned 7 pts out of a possible 9 in our last three games and there have been other games where the Improvement was noticeable in our overall performance . Given the financial backing to make squad changes I think Moyes would do a good job . But he must be given his chance to continue the good work he was doing . Let’s forget about style ( although recently the style has become more fluid and attractive ) for a moment and consider instead the need for points . We can’t keep expecting the world with what we’ve got and a top ten finish next season would be just about right for us . To achieve that we obviously need more than 42 pts . We were once relegated with 42 pts don’t forget . A top six finish is feasible if Moyes is given the tools , a new manager won’t change things necessarily . We need a couple of years of constant improvement and consistency before we can start to expect some success . So , I say give Moyes a chance .
i agree. alll we are saying is give moyes a chance. I think the football has steadily improved under moyes and his team to the point where they were starting to play some very attractive football. the players obviously like him. lanzini in his latest interview saying that first and foremost moyes is a good person. he has obviously helped lanzini get back to his best, got the best out of lanzini, arnie, noble, ogbonna, masuaku, to name a few. even cresswell and kouyate were showing signs of getting back to earlier good form towards the end. mario was getting better the more he played. rice has clearly benefitted a huge amount from his time under moyes. and this wasnt his team but one he inherited. i think he deserves at least another year to see if he can continue to build and improve. if he does the jobafter another year then give him a 2 year deal. if he doesnt achieve it after another year then fair enough, wave goodbye and say hello to dick emery fontescue benitez or whatever hes called.
We maybe underselling Fonseca..
His attacking style would delight our fans, and providing he has sufficient funds to bring in some quality players and another true ‘playmaker’ ( plus added to the treasure chest of talented U-23 available), we may do better than anticipated.
We must keep Joao Mario!
I agree – except I hadn’t realised Mario would cost £25 million – good but not that good.
Without the stress and pressure of a relegation scrap, the attacking style of Moyes would also delight our fans. In the last part of the season and occasionally before that we saw evidence of his trade mark 1 touch quick passing movements. I want to see that again next season, not throw everything into the air just in case it all lands up the right way.
This season just passed three teams had expansive foreign managers – the total football descendents De Boer, Koeman and our own super Slav
It went pear shaped for all three and the teams had to be bailed out by British dinosaurs
The last foreign manager we employed in a World Cup year had experience of a Champions League final – geezer by the name of Avram Grant
Given that there will be a short preseason and transfer window before the start of next season – I think that knowledge of 1) our own players and 2) other players in the English leagues will be very important
I think employing someone other than Moyes would be a huge risk